traditional grip observations-finger control

[beats]

gentlemen:all u trad. grip players. need a bit of coaching. ive been using trad. grip 4 longer than when i started drumming w. matched grip. ive got decent facilty and exclusively use this grip 4 every style i play. my question is regarding finger control.maybe ill reference some players videoes if it will help.now weckl in his new vid.series touches on trad.grip finger control.he employs an overhand/palm down finger control.i can do that.it is completly impractical for any kind of playing.in fact it is a drum corps. visual trick.on the same vid. u can see dave use this on the outro of one of those songs. now vinnie uses finger technique(index&"f-off"finger)while maintaining a (seemingly)normal resting position.he seems to employ this 4 faster quieter single strokes. im trying to mimic this but it seems difficult to execute.yet i CAN do the fast quiet singles with very minute movements of my wrist using total rebound of pad/head. now art verdi uses same fingers ala vinnie but his palm is nearly facing upwards and hes freakishly fast. id like to know if any one here has any thoughts on this,cuz its really confusing.i dont want to create any bad habits while finding a solution.im not looking for a this approachvs. that approach answer-just some good solid guides.if u need more info on my inquiry to better answer this-then post and ill be keeping very close attention to the board.hoping 4 some good insights! thanx y'all..........beats

[DanielC]

Check out the Moeller stroke in this month's (Oct. edition) Modern Drummer. They refer to this technique a couple of months ago with great detail regarding this technique.

[PETE13184]

Beats I think I understand what you are saying. The finger control brings to mind videos like the BR Memorial tape with Vinnie and Weckl and Gadd. In that Vinnie is doin those fast singles with his fingers. But then compare that to Vinnie on MD fest 2000 It seems like he is now utilizing more of the entire wrist instead of just the fingers.

I don't really know about the weckl thing you describe however I know that Weckl's technique is totally his and that probably no one should imitate it. I say this because he is still coming out of playing in that "physical" style for so long as he described it. I don't know that's just my opinion.

Anyways with the fast singles, personally I find that at even the smallest volumes using my entire wrist is better because then you can control volume and get louder or quieter just by changing the amount of wrist used. I keep my index finger over the stick and it moves as one with the rest of my hand. I don't know if this helps or is relevant but this has worked for me.

[Steve Holmes]

Talking specifically about the finger technique, I think Weck's Back To Basics video pretty much spells it out. The palm down dribbling with the index and middle finger is the way..get that happening then flip it over. Do both fingers together, but I do them individually as well.
I spent countless hours practicing that but most of that is probably while doing other things (watching TV, on the phone, hanging with friends). I have it happening but I dont know how entirely usefull it is. I tend to use straight wrist and/or moeller. Much more volume and power that way.

[Nikk]

Yeah, "Back to Basics" offers some sound advice. You should also purchase Morello's "Master Studies" book. This is an encyclopedia of finger control exercises, etc. Be careful not to get too wrapped up in John Riley's Moeller article. It's too friggin' complicated. You guys shoulda heard Morello dogging it at his clinic here a month ago. He was ripping on the fact that Riley has all these time-lapse photographs and shit. To paraphrase: "...and then Riley comes out with this Moeller article that confused the entire drumming community. Hey man, it's just a whipping motion!" The audience was laughing their asses off. Anyway, check out Master Studies. For quiet, fast singles, a la Vinnie, it's my opinion that one utilizes minute wrist movement while creating a sort of channel (the triangle Weckl discusses in the new technique video)with the fingers in which the stick is not restricted. Any time we, as drummers, get into this idea of "let me just use my fingers, or just wrists," I think we're kinda fooling ourselves. I only wish it were that easy. To really excel technically we must spend hours calculating the appropriate wrist/finger/forearm ratios involved in different techniques. But hey, that's half the fun for us, right?

[beats]

thanx guys. realized my post was a bit scattered. steve,pete,and nikk responded to my queries in which i have found some useful guides. my post really had nothing to do w. the moeller stroke as i teach this to my students. so im a bit worried that drum 6282 may be misinterpreting stick control techniques. thanx y'all.......beats